tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post3874316701773376870..comments2024-03-28T10:31:55.774-07:00Comments on The Passing Tramp: Such a Critic! Julian Symons on Hard-boiled/Noir Crime WritersThe Passing Tramphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-39806074721276922852014-05-04T13:18:45.224-07:002014-05-04T13:18:45.224-07:00Sergio, hmm, that seems like a pretty distinctive ...Sergio, hmm, that seems like a pretty distinctive set of books. I can imagine that Symons didn't like the violent depravity depicted, but still it seems like there's a unique voice to it. Hard to imagine someone else writing something quite like Pop 1280, for example!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-1150027067697433132014-05-04T13:16:03.566-07:002014-05-04T13:16:03.566-07:00Tracy, the perfect book for you will be mine, of c...Tracy, the perfect book for you will be mine, of course ( ;) ), if I ever get it finished! I think it will be shorter than Symons too (for one thing I'm only covering about a half century). ;)The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-20250077952189880602014-05-04T13:07:58.908-07:002014-05-04T13:07:58.908-07:00Thanks, Sergio and Curt, for your replies. A lot o...Thanks, Sergio and Curt, for your replies. A lot of information there. The problem with Bloody Murder is I want to read it straight through, and if I keep aiming at that, it probably won't happen. Maybe I have to accept that I will dip in here and there or be willing to skip sections now and then. TracyKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08303342674824383688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-8274091637164374972014-05-04T12:58:03.555-07:002014-05-04T12:58:03.555-07:00The reprint he mentioned would have been the Zomba...The reprint he mentioned would have been the Zomba Black Box volume that includes KILLER INSIDE ME along with GETAWAY, GRIFTERS and POP 1280.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-62290593081851133532014-05-04T04:23:43.818-07:002014-05-04T04:23:43.818-07:00I'm not personally enamored with Jim Thompson,...<i>I'm not personally enamored with Jim Thompson, but surely he is pretty unique</i><br /><br />And fortunately so!Xavierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05702919450638993709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-56406145298877477992014-05-04T02:05:21.221-07:002014-05-04T02:05:21.221-07:00Can't agree with him on Woolrich though, even ...Can't agree with him on Woolrich though, even though I think it is true that sometimes Cornell was guilty of overwriting in the novels. But I think he's one of the greats overall.<br /><br />I'm not personally enamored with Jim Thompson, but surely he is pretty unique, or was in the 1950s anyway! Of course Symons was basing his judgment on four reprints. I wonder whether he ever read The Killer Inside Me?<br /><br />Have to say too, I have always liked the Chandler novels better than the Hammetts (like the Hammett short stories better than the Chandler short stories though). But I like the romantic approach that Symons less values.<br /><br />It is interesting to see how Symons tipped sacred cows in this area, when usually we just hear about how he put the traditional detective novel in its place!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-90996616758397529922014-05-04T01:59:00.037-07:002014-05-04T01:59:00.037-07:00Whoops, checked A Catalogue of Crime and found out...Whoops, checked A Catalogue of Crime and found out I was wrong about Barzun disliking Woolrich. I don't believe he was crazy about the novels, but he did praise some of his short stories. Which is certainly a far cry from Symons' pretty categorical dismissal.<br /><br />This is a good example of how you can't pigeonhole people, however, because many might incline to think it would be the other way rounds as regards these two critics and Woolrich.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-19993831087159619612014-05-04T01:51:07.619-07:002014-05-04T01:51:07.619-07:00I used to passionately hate Bloody Murder, but my ...I used to passionately hate Bloody Murder, but my views have evolved as President Obama would say. Symons's views on hardboiled/noir I've always found refreshing, especially his take on Ellroy who definetely needs some beating. (He is a demi-god here in France and I have yet to see anything even remotely critical written about him.) Also delightful from this traditionalist's point of view was his takedown of another now-sainted overrated writer, Robin Cook (the British one, not the American)Xavierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05702919450638993709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-79388036744469119162014-05-03T20:00:14.956-07:002014-05-03T20:00:14.956-07:00Sergio, I think Barzun and Taylor can be too restr...Sergio, I think Barzun and Taylor can be too restrictive too, though I used to be a firm Barzunian back in the 1990s. It is interesting that Symons once commented that he and Barzun disagreed on everything, when that's actually not true. They both disliked Woolrich, for example! I think both Symons and Barzun actually shared the interest in realism, though in Symons case that was psychological realism and in Barzun it was material realism, if you will. <br /><br />Of course there are exceptions. Symons couldn't resist the lure of S. S. Van Dine and John Dickson Carr, for example.<br /><br />I was surprised looking again at Chapter Ten how tough he actually was on a lot of the hard-boiled/noir writers. Tougher than I am and I'm supposed to be the traditional detective fiction guy! And then there's Ellroy, like you mention, and he also thought Elmore Leonard was overrated as I recollect. He is certainly forthright!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-22888394268264469292014-05-03T19:49:07.518-07:002014-05-03T19:49:07.518-07:00Well, Tracy, James is a good essayist and an enjoy...Well, Tracy, James is a good essayist and an enjoyable writer, so she is always worth reading, but I think there's a lot more informative detail in Symons. The main difference on the GA is that James likes Allingham, Marsh and, especially, Dorothy L. Sayers more than Symons. Symons is really pretty dismissive to Sayers' wider aspirations as a mystery writer. Also I would say that James is more sympathetic to the conservatism of the Golden Age, although she, like Symons, views the modern crime novel as generally superior to the GA detective story.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-5832686400098415722014-05-03T17:24:01.634-07:002014-05-03T17:24:01.634-07:00I meant to say that I don't think he is 'w...I meant to say that I don't think he is 'wrong' in what he says about Ellroy, but that I put up with what Symons hates more easily and get more benefit therefore from the work overall Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-14627173829039370832014-05-03T17:20:49.647-07:002014-05-03T17:20:49.647-07:00The Symons is actually very concise and extremely ...The Symons is actually very concise and extremely well indexed so it is very easy to dip in and out of. In my personal view, which is a very fond one (I find his views more in keeping with my own sentiments than Barzun & Taylor I might add), I find it very easy to either agree and disagree with him as he is pretty consistent and is honest about what he likes and doesn't like and the fact that his aims to be a personal view and not an encyclopedic reference (indeed, he marks his territory on this very effectively in his intro). He is far from right about everything (he is incredibly hard on James Ellroy foir instance but not actually - just a question of degree in one's personal predilections and tolerance for certain things) but i think he gets a lot of things right - his is only a starting point after, but, as Curt says, a very good one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-65112241729075254832014-05-03T14:27:57.431-07:002014-05-03T14:27:57.431-07:00I really want to read Bloody Murder but the length...I really want to read Bloody Murder but the length and depth keeps putting me off. I need to get over that. What did you think of Talking about Detective Fiction by James? I haven't bought a copy and not sure if I want to.TracyKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08303342674824383688noreply@blogger.com