tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post5945290652404129714..comments2024-03-27T11:26:20.466-07:00Comments on The Passing Tramp: Worsleying Around with the Golden Age of Detective Fiction, Part Four: The Final FuryThe Passing Tramphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-51510958428849140732018-12-17T19:26:33.635-08:002018-12-17T19:26:33.635-08:00I saw the series, and for all it’s flaws kinda enj...I saw the series, and for all it’s flaws kinda enjoyed it. I get the impression that she was avery likeable TV presenter casting about for her next subject, and someone suggested murder mysteries because she “loves” Sayers. <br /><br />I want to recommend to those who liked Curtis's relentless dismantling of Worsley's book — which is excellent work by Curtis — Michael Crichton’s essay on the Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-76231475647198689222014-04-30T00:23:30.718-07:002014-04-30T00:23:30.718-07:00"But there is still more variety within their...<em>"But there is still more variety within their thinking that a lot of people seem to believe."</em><br /><br />It was a more tolerant age. Differences in political opinions were expected, and respected.<br /><br />Being a communist didn't stop Cecil Day-Lewis (Nicholas Blake) from becoming a popular writer of detective fiction. An idea that writers of detective fiction in that age were monolithically conservative is clearly absurd.dfordoomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02306293859869179118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-76831540770056547352014-04-29T07:52:30.511-07:002014-04-29T07:52:30.511-07:00Lucy, I think there indeed is a lot of that attitu...Lucy, I think there indeed is a lot of that attitude. It all can be rather self-congratulatory (aren't we so much better people now)., when in fact every era has failings. <br /><br />What struck me, however, going back and rethinking books from GA the last fifteen years is how they often are more interesting on social matters than they are credited with being. There's no question that British detective fiction authors from that era tended to be "conservative," just as, I think, they tend more to be liberal today. But there is still more variety within their thinking that a lot of people seem to believe. And you do even have some "left" thinking that made its way in there!<br /><br />I'll give you an example with Masters of the Humdrum Mystery (naturally). The "Humdrum" British mystery writers are often portrayed as indistinguishable old fuddy-duddies, but not quite, I say!<br /><br />John Street, who came of a military/landed gentry background, was an army artillerist and intelligence officer and a one-time early electrical engineer. His politics seem not to have been Tory but Liberal (British form), at least during the Golden Age. He's actually rather worldly. After becoming estranged from his wife he lived with another woman for 25 years before they were able to marry. Street was often dismissive toward complacent landed gentry and very interested in industry.<br /><br />Freeman Wills Crofts was a railway engineer and low church, evangelical minded Anglican whose religious views hugely influenced his work. He actually became quite critical of the wealthy during the 1930s, on social justice grounds.<br /><br />J. J. Connington (Alfred Walter Stewart) was a chemistry professor and often bracingly sardonic and cynical in his writing.<br /><br />I found the books by these authors much more interesting and varied on social grounds than I would have expected from the view of the GA presented in the traditional genre histories.<br />The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-12904004552099080452014-04-29T07:36:31.968-07:002014-04-29T07:36:31.968-07:00Of course it's unfortunate that so many people...Of course it's unfortunate that so many people today (like Worsley) seem to think that Golden Age detective fiction was only about aristocratic gentleman and village spinster detectives (well, Poirot excepted)!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-62058721366262189362014-04-29T07:32:51.877-07:002014-04-29T07:32:51.877-07:00Sergio, interesting to hear. I'm sure Worsley...Sergio, interesting to hear. I'm sure Worsley is very nice and quite charming and she will make a great host at the CWA dinner this year! I'm not familiar with Worsley's work in other areas like domestic history, but I imagine it's interesting. And of course I like a lot of things about the work of Julian Symons, Colin Watson and P. D. James (I would have loved to have met Symons).<br /><br />It's just so disappointing to me that the James and Worsley books cover such little new ground, aside from being more sympathetic to Dorothy L. Sayers, whom Symons really seems not all that crazy about, when you come down to it! Although actually I think Symons is rather more sympathetic to Christie, so maybe it all balances.<br /><br />Like with other aspects of the Golden Age, Worsley could have done a lot more with the decline part. People new to the history of the genre would really be better advised to get Symons' book which is still in print. If they want a more sympathetic look at the Crime Queens, they should give the James book a look.<br /><br />We're over forty years on from Watson and Symons, however, and from my perspective, it would be interesting if these broad histories were to explore some new ground, as stated above. Actually a lot of books have over the last twenty years, a lot of them academic books, and I think it would have strengthened Worsley's book immeasurably had she drawn on this more recent research.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-58639351084847938062014-04-29T07:15:52.912-07:002014-04-29T07:15:52.912-07:00Nigel, I wouldn't call it hatred for the genre...Nigel, I wouldn't call it hatred for the genre but Watson does take GA detective fiction to task for social attitudes (especially about servants), as does Symons for that matter, and Worsley follows suit.<br /><br />Of course one finds these attitudes in the books of the era (British and American). In my Masters of the Humdrum Mystery I spend some considerable time on this matter and document it when I find it (and I do find it). On the other hand, I also find much more nuance than I would have expected from Watson. In fact I find one specific instance of Watson not really getting the details right about a book by John Street, which I discuss (this concerns not snobbery but the alleged sexual primness of Golden Age books, another charge he makes against them).<br /><br />Watson also accuses the books of the era of sanitizing violence. Again, it depends on the book! John Rhode's The Bloody Tower has a quite graphic account of the blown-off face of the murder victim. I think there is no question but that was a move toward greater realism in the GA detective novel in the 1930s, and this is something Watson and Worsley (who also follows Watson on the violence question) tend to ignore (at least Symons talks about Francis Iles and psychological realism).<br /><br />However, despite my disagreements with Watson, enjoy Watson's fiction and I think Snobbery with Violence is a worthwhile book (I agree wholeheartedly with some of it, like his discussion of the indefensible thriller writer Sydney Horler). It just needs to be challenged on some points, not simply echoed as Worsley does!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-51551442004663490872014-04-29T04:56:38.882-07:002014-04-29T04:56:38.882-07:00My memory of "Snobbery with Violence" is...My memory of "Snobbery with Violence" is not that it's animated by a particular hatred of the Golden Age detective story. Watson obviously had a lot of sympathy for Agatha Christie, for instance. And he disliked attitudes shown in other genres (Raffles and James Bond).nigel.holmeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00387290866972027637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-23465356908600074292014-04-29T02:47:58.453-07:002014-04-29T02:47:58.453-07:00Must admit, after I got to meet Worsley at an even...Must admit, after I got to meet Worsley at an event last week (very briefly and she was really nice by the way) I rewatched the final episode of her TV series which is basically what you cover hear and I found myself pretty unconvinced. Hitchcock plays a big role here too and surely what she should have done is talked about Patricia Highsmith rather than the fperson who made the film version. I couldn't really see why ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-79850955403980176222014-04-28T11:29:43.182-07:002014-04-28T11:29:43.182-07:00I think in fairness to Colin Watson, his study was...I think in fairness to Colin Watson, his study was never meant to be an all-encompassing history of the genre, and instead was an overview specifically focussing on the trend for upper class/public school educated detectives (and non-detectives- he takes in bond and hannay), and if and why, it had gone out of fashion. So for this reason he didnt mention the people that didn't fit as they weren't relevant to his argument, but i don't think, unlike other writers, he implied they were the only type of character around at the time. Sometimes i think, much as i adore him , P G Wodehouse has a lot to answer for !grimwighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06150168436753680867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-71691216517125276982014-04-28T10:08:36.629-07:002014-04-28T10:08:36.629-07:00To quote writer Dominic Fox "This narrative t...To quote writer Dominic Fox "This narrative that says that everybody before about 5 minutes ago was UNAWARE but now we are AWARE and YAY". Those Golden Age detective writers reflected a conservative society, and the more conservative we make it out to be, the better WE look. Because we are AWARE and YAY. (They reflected their society - they weren't responsible for it. And that Harriet Vane was a bit of a rebel.)Lucy R. Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632983296994349550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-38375746584697403192014-04-28T08:21:33.550-07:002014-04-28T08:21:33.550-07:00Well, Neer, I know 4000 words is a lot to devote t...Well, Neer, I know 4000 words is a lot to devote to a subject, but I have to say that I found both the James book (which is worth reading) and Worsley's disappointing. A person might still want to read Worsley for the chapters on Victorian murder (if they don't want to read Judith Flanders' superior, but very detailed, book), but on the Golden Age a neophyte would be much better advised seeking out, among popular histories, Symons' book, which is still in print, and supplementing it with James, who takes a more sympathetic look at Dorothy L. Sayers and the (in my opinion, somewhat exaggerated) conservatism of the period. Even Worsley's coverage of her ostensible focus in the Golden Age, the Crime Queens, is disappointing.<br /><br />There's a great photo of the Detection Club's Eric the Skull though!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-51889541008669977582014-04-28T08:13:16.292-07:002014-04-28T08:13:16.292-07:00Well, I think it depends on the academic! I'm ...Well, I think it depends on the academic! I'm reluctant to takes swipes with so wide a brush. For what it's worth Worsley's book is a popular history, not an academic one, even though she has an advanced degree (in architectural history). There are many academic studies that are better grounded in the primary sources than Worsley's. So, for that matter, are Symons, Watson's and James' popular books.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-61715746394619710092014-04-28T05:40:38.657-07:002014-04-28T05:40:38.657-07:00My impression of critics like Colin Watson is that...My impression of critics like Colin Watson is that they starred off with a theory (Golden Age Detective Fiction is a Bad Thing because it's not left-wing) and then cherry-picked the genre to find evidence. It seems this is still the favoured academic approach. dfordoomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02306293859869179118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-25921172063737945322014-04-27T18:19:22.680-07:002014-04-27T18:19:22.680-07:00Thanks for putting this together. It seems to me t...Thanks for putting this together. It seems to me that Professor Worsley has only looked at those writers whose books are still selling, whether it is because of the merit of the books or because of better marketing. It's a shame actually. You expect books such as these to be researched well and to be more comprehensive especially as regards to those books and authors who have fallen by the wayside.neerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01986509319841061021noreply@blogger.com