tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post8951920105722416481..comments2024-03-27T11:26:20.466-07:00Comments on The Passing Tramp: Seriously? Intellectuals and the Golden Age Detective Novel 1: T. S. EliotThe Passing Tramphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-64684904078073807272015-07-31T09:22:20.809-07:002015-07-31T09:22:20.809-07:00And the best of the Barbara Vines: ASTA'S BOOK...And the best of the Barbara Vines: ASTA'S BOOK, A DARK-ADAPTED EYE, A FATAL INVERSION, THE HOUSE OF STAIRS, THE BRIMSTONE WEDDING, THE CHIMNEY-SWEEPER'S BOY...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521089883479345468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-31141174255231949092015-05-04T10:06:50.168-07:002015-05-04T10:06:50.168-07:00Try From Doon with Death, Wolf to the Slaughter, T...Try From Doon with Death, Wolf to the Slaughter, The Best Man to Die, A Guilty Thing Surprised.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-21751145420396136562015-05-04T03:40:35.197-07:002015-05-04T03:40:35.197-07:00I've only read one Rendell and that was a late...I've only read one Rendell and that was a later one (<em>Road Rage</em>) and not to my taste at all. I suppose I should give one of her early books a try. Do you have any particular early Rendell recommendations?dfordoomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02306293859869179118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-38459958968737862402015-05-04T02:30:00.541-07:002015-05-04T02:30:00.541-07:00Obviously some writers will succeed better than ot...Obviously some writers will succeed better than others in importing elements beyond the puzzle into the mystery novel. As T. S. Eliot said, some might have been better advised not to try it at all! And for some puzzle fans, these elements will seem extraneous, no matter how well-handled. In Rendell's career, she gave us the more purely puzzle-focused Wexfords between 1964-83 and the more theme-oriented ones from 1994-2013, I would say (the period in between is more transitional). So, arguably, one gets the best of both worlds. The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-4823030797387237062015-05-03T18:35:39.494-07:002015-05-03T18:35:39.494-07:00She had a seriousness of intent in much of her wor...<strong>She had a seriousness of intent in much of her work.</strong><br /><br />Seriousness of intent is all well and good but really it's irrelevant. What matters is whether you have the talent to pull off seriousness of achievement. I could decide to do a painting and I could approach it with great seriousness of intent. I could tell myself that my painting was going to say all sorts of important things about the human condition and about various socio-political issues. But given that I have zero talent as a painter the result would inevitably be an embarrassing load of rubbish.<br /><br />That's the problem with so much contemporary writing - writers today think that seriousness of intent is all they need when what they actually need is talent.<br /><br />I'm not suggesting Rendell lacked talent. I haven't read enough of her work to make any sort of judgment on it. I'm just suggesting that seriousness of intent on its own means very little. Which is probably the point you yourself were making.dfordoomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02306293859869179118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-1778018266185561892015-05-03T15:59:32.598-07:002015-05-03T15:59:32.598-07:00I have to admit I gradually lost interest in the l...I have to admit I gradually lost interest in the later James books. For me they seemed to get longer and longer without really adding anything to the earlier ones except more descriptive detail.<br /><br />I like the older more puzzle-like Rendell Wexfords, but she obviously tired of that and I do think with some of her later books she was successful at trying new things, or expanding the interesting, non-puzzle aspects of her earlier books. There are the "psychological" non-Wexford Rendells, the social detail of the later Wexfords and the sheer richness of the best Barbara Vines, which remind of the old triple-decker Victorian novels, with less cloaked sex and violence.<br /><br />She left us a very rich legacy in crime fiction. Entertaining, but also often moving and thought-provoking.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-59269463150223479122015-05-03T15:42:59.568-07:002015-05-03T15:42:59.568-07:00excerpts from Rendell where she bridled at compari...<i>excerpts from Rendell where she bridled at comparisons with Christie and stressed that she was, unlike Christie, a serious writer.</i><br /><br />In <i>that</i> sense of "serious" I'd go along with her -- and I'd certainly decry the Christie comparisons. She had a seriousness of intent in much of her work.<br /><br />Oddly enough, I'd quite accept comparisons of Christie with P.D. James. The last few novels of hers I've read are really just Christie-style entertainments, but bloated by long pompous tracts of not very good "posh" writing.<br /><br />To be honest, I've never been wowed by Rendell's more traditional works, the ones that drew the Christie comparisons -- i.e., the Wexfords. On the other hand, I haven't read any of the later Wexfords, and I gather they began to transcend their chosen form.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-13872840867270555442015-05-03T15:07:45.622-07:002015-05-03T15:07:45.622-07:00Definitely grounded, but I can find you over the y...Definitely grounded, but I can find you over the years many excerpts from Rendell where she bridled at comparisons with Christie and stressed that she was, unlike Christie, a serious writer. And, you know, Rendell *was* a serious writer, one who entertained as well. When you read a Rendell novel like A Dark Adapted Eye or Asta's Book, it's clear that there is, in addition to the puzzle aspect, a serious purpose behind it. And that they are, I would argue, good novels.<br /><br />I want to be clear here. I think there's nothing wrong with crime writers have "higher" literary aims with their books; in fact, I commend it. But I also commend those who are happy to concentrate on putting together clever plots. At her best Rendell did both.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-50074432986512134882015-05-03T14:36:17.169-07:002015-05-03T14:36:17.169-07:00You say: "Writers like P. D. James and Ruth R...You say: "Writers like P. D. James and Ruth Rendell didn't want to be thought of as "mere" entertainers but serious novelists, and grew restive with the Crime Queen labels and the inevitable comparisons to Agatha Christie."<br /><br />Rendell was a bit more grounded than that. Here's from her <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/may/02/ruth-rendell-obituary-crime-writer" rel="nofollow">long <i>Guardian</i> obituary</a>:<br /><br /><i>Although Rendell did not like the title often bestowed on her – queen of crime – calling it snide and sexist, she did not go along with the many reviewers, among them AN Wilson and PD James, who called her a great novelist. “Nobody in their senses is going to call me a first-class writer,” she said. “I don’t mind because I do the very best that I can and thousands, millions of people enjoy my books.”</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-168356519167497522015-05-03T09:04:05.247-07:002015-05-03T09:04:05.247-07:00He knew the fans! Of course my essay title "...He knew the fans! Of course my essay title "Murder in The Criterion" was meant to allude to this play.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-30398960983740939642015-05-03T09:02:00.692-07:002015-05-03T09:02:00.692-07:00Also, I should add, I don't really think of Ta...Also, I should add, I don't really think of Talking about Detective Fiction James as polemical, like Chandler was, by his own admission, in "The Simple Art of Murder." It's really rather a charming book, though of course I have my disagreements with it. James is always an enjoyable essayist. It's meant to be more of a collection of thoughts on her craft by an acknowledged master of it.<br /><br />James views actually came to reflect to a great extent those of Sayers, as they developed over the 1930s. Sayers herself came to write rather dismissively of the "mere puzzle" mystery, although, it should be noted, she kept reading them (see "Was Corinne;s Murder Clued?").The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-37363721542733662252015-05-03T08:55:30.790-07:002015-05-03T08:55:30.790-07:00Well, I think she means "commonly despised&qu...Well, I think she means "commonly despised" by intellectuals. And I think it is true that some intellectuals did grow bored with the mystery fad in the 1930s. There was a move away from from the so-called "pure puzzle" mystery in the 1930s, which, as we know, only accelerated after WW2. <br /><br />However, I think she misses that during the earlier part of the Golden Age especially quite a few intellectuals thought those puzzles were pretty neat. Some, like Barzun, read and enjoyed ratiocinative detective fiction for virtually their entire lives. Jacques Barzun was reading Golden Age detective fiction during the Jazz Age and still writing about it in the 21st century.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-77735752653738866332015-05-03T08:47:43.729-07:002015-05-03T08:47:43.729-07:00Jay, I note this from your blog:
http://marxistup...Jay, I note this from your blog:<br /><br />http://marxistupdate.blogspot.com/2014/07/httpsdrive.html<br /><br />"In all the decades we thought Ernest Mandel was exploring imperialist political economy and laying bare the roots of traitorous Stalinism, he was actually spending his time reading mystery novels and thrillers. He also watched Kojack and Starsky and Hutch between paperbacks.<br /><br />Delightful Murder is filled with fruitful discussions of the social roots and crime and punishment, and the social roots of popular fiction about it."The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-84582193926377936282015-05-03T05:26:21.126-07:002015-05-03T05:26:21.126-07:00Ernest Mandel wrote an insightful book called &quo...Ernest Mandel wrote an insightful book called "Delightful Murder" based on his lifetime's reading in the thriller and mystery genres.Jay Rothermelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09531989615494104215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-6003277404699376832015-05-02T22:21:30.635-07:002015-05-02T22:21:30.635-07:00The P. D. James quotes are worrying. When someone ...The P. D. James quotes are worrying. When someone uses terms like “a commonly despised genre” and “ingenious but lifeless sub-literary puzzle” they’re engaged in polemics rather than criticism. A genre despised by whom? How despised was a genre that enjoyed immense popularity and numbered people like T. S. Eliot among its admirers? It might have been despised by P. D. James. She seems to be making the dangerous and intellectually lazy assumption that the views of all right-thinking people must naturally coincide with her own views.<br /><br />There’s nearly always a touch of intellectual elitism behind such polemics. An assumption that popular taste must be wrong and that elite tastes must be superior.<br /><br />I wonder if that’s a peculiarly English prejudice? Or an Anglophone prejudice?dfordoomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02306293859869179118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-19725921642033918892015-05-02T21:58:42.263-07:002015-05-02T21:58:42.263-07:00Eliot also incorporated dialogue from Doyle's ...Eliot also incorporated dialogue from Doyle's The Musgrave Ritual in his play Murder in the Cathedral. The play's very title reflected Eliot's wish to get detective story fans to come and watch what would turn out to be a religious play.Roger Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11012987757094423896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-30239381858318637862015-05-02T19:41:36.786-07:002015-05-02T19:41:36.786-07:00And he may have had a hand in helping Gypsy Rose L...And he may have had a hand in helping Gypsy Rose Lee write her mystery novel when they and others shared a house in Brooklyn -- 7 Middagh Street. R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-72987004431888375312015-05-02T18:57:12.786-07:002015-05-02T18:57:12.786-07:00W. H. Auden was also a fan.W. H. Auden was also a fan.R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.com