tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post2928636146265025380..comments2024-03-28T10:31:55.774-07:00Comments on The Passing Tramp: Worsleying Around with the Golden Age of Detective Fiction, Part Two: Crime Queens, Absent Kings and Ladies in WaitingThe Passing Tramphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-68294804893131004092018-12-17T19:07:58.622-08:002018-12-17T19:07:58.622-08:00PS Inspector Hanaud, professional, first appeared ...PS Inspector Hanaud, professional, first appeared in 1909. He also appeared in the 1920s. He is French but Mason is impeccably English. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-58102929213015946622018-12-17T19:05:12.186-08:002018-12-17T19:05:12.186-08:00I love a good demolition job, me. Like this one. T...I love a good demolition job, me. Like this one. Thanks!Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-76506031868507295182014-09-21T20:15:54.410-07:002014-09-21T20:15:54.410-07:00Just for the sake of completeness, Carr's Henr...Just for the sake of completeness, Carr's Henri Bencolin is technically yet another competent cop detective.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-50998535872253600742014-08-10T09:30:46.392-07:002014-08-10T09:30:46.392-07:00"But if in fact four 'Crime Queens' d...<em>"But if in fact four 'Crime Queens' did not dominate the period, why write about only them in a book on the Golden Age of detective fiction? Isn't she perpetuating a false perception of genre history by doing so?"</em><br /><br />It sounds as if she knows she is painting a false picture and is going to go ahead and do so anyway. You have to remember that female critics seem to have a lot invested in belittling the contributions of male writers.<br /><br /><em>"Worsley feels so strongly about the brilliance of that great sparkling fairy that is Gaudy Night that when she read Julian Symons' dismissive comments about the novel in Bloody Murder, she writes, she 'threw Mr. Symons book on the floor and stamped on it.' "</em><br /><br />The Harriet Vane novels seem to me to be the least satisfactory of Sayers' books.dfordoomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02306293859869179118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-8147570619334515192014-04-27T18:06:18.464-07:002014-04-27T18:06:18.464-07:00This gets more delightful.
This gets more delightful.<br />neerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01986509319841061021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-17755320941608118762014-02-09T12:18:30.384-08:002014-02-09T12:18:30.384-08:00Philo of course had a sort of romance in one book-...Philo of course had a sort of romance in one book--wasn't too convincing! The funny thing about Wright's credo against atmosphere and literary writing in a detective novel is, I think one thing that made the Greene and Bishop murder cases so popular was they did have atmosphere. The weirdo family being knocked off one by one in the creepy old mansion in Greene is classic melodrama.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-7540933618441247102014-02-09T10:37:31.791-08:002014-02-09T10:37:31.791-08:00For me, with GAUDY, it's that gap between ambi...For me, with GAUDY, it's that gap between ambition and actual achievement that gets in the way - and yes, I must be one of the few people around saying nice things about the Philo Vance books! I think Symons was very right when he points to Wright's intellectual credentials being much more significant than Sayers' and that this is reflected in the books - but I like a lot of the Sayers books a great deal (MURDER MUST ADVERTISE is a favourite, bit less keen of FIVE RED HERRINGS and CARCASE though) and re-reading UNNATURAL DEATH recently was (mostly) a pleasure and her prose was much, much better than Wright's - I think his time came and went but he was too rigid with his formula - maybe if he'd married Vance off we would remember him more fondly (but I doubt it) :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-57550706080860984482014-02-08T05:13:23.500-08:002014-02-08T05:13:23.500-08:00TomCat,
Well, this gets into the vexed question o...TomCat,<br /><br />Well, this gets into the vexed question of how broadly you define the "Golden Age of the detective novel." If you go by the customary definition of between the wars, give or take a few years, much of the Golden Age had passed by 1934. If you extend it to 1950, say, it was still about half over in 1934. So you can't say the whole GA was dominated by four Crime Queens. I've found that a lot of writers just aren't that interested in the 1920s, a period when there weren't four active "Crime Queens." So that was kind of a plea for people to give the 1920s more of a look.<br /><br />Maybe it should be extended to 1950, but I think that's complicated by the paperback revolution and the rise of the hard-boiled novel to new heights of popularity, spy fiction, the shortening of the mystery novel, the advance of psychological crime fiction, etc.<br /><br />Certainly people were still writing Golden Age mysteries for some time. Indeed, people are still writing them. I'm going to get into Worsley's take on the end of the GA in the next piece.<br /><br />I must say that as often as I have criticized Bloody Murder's treatment of the Humdrums, not once did I throw the book on the ground and stamp on it. In fact I don't believe I've ever done that with a book. I confine myself to pointed annotations.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-35033159459602027522014-02-07T23:44:36.516-08:002014-02-07T23:44:36.516-08:00Curt,
I just read a piece by some academic bloke...Curt, <br /><br />I just read a <a href="http://thepassingtramp.blogspot.com/2014/02/wosleying-around-with-golden-age-part.html" rel="nofollow">piece</a> by some academic bloke claiming that after 1934 "<i>much of the Golden Age had passed</i>," and while the Gold Standard differs from reader-to-reader, 1940s hardly qualify as a winding down/transitional period with the big names still publishing (sometimes their finest and most mature works) and new writers such as Brand and Crispin debuting. It's another example of how little there's actually being read and I suggest this guy picks up a few Rhode, Carr and Roos novels to educate himself! ;-)<br /><br />But seriously, I'm starting to come around on Worlsey. Someone who threw <i>Bloody Murder</i> to the ground and stamped on it isn't beyond saving. <br />TomCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03415176301265218101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-88891358703738224422014-02-07T13:30:29.337-08:002014-02-07T13:30:29.337-08:00Well, I think Gaudy Night really speaks to a lot o...Well, I think Gaudy Night really speaks to a lot of women readers (often women in education fields themselves) with the issues it addresses. And of course so many readers love the Harriet-Peter saga. It's historical fact that Sayers' sales started really increasing when she introduced the love element. Gaudy Night and Busman's Honeymoon were terrific sellers.<br /><br />I gather you, like Symons himself, like Philo Vance better than Lord Peter, which I find interesting, I enjoy the Lord Peter books, one can see the Wodehouse influence in the early ones, which I enjoy, though some people can't stand it. <br /><br />Besides Tailors, I also would note Murder Must Advertise and the two earlier Vane books, Have His Carcase and Strong Poison. I even like The Five Red Herrings, the railway timetable novel. Once one has read all the Freeman Wills Crofts books, The Five Red Herrings is pie. The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-42517220211533295202014-02-07T09:55:18.123-08:002014-02-07T09:55:18.123-08:00The series, in three parts, focussed only on the G...The series, in three parts, focussed only on the Golden Age in its third episode - the one before that considered the mid to late Victorian era while the first focused on real-life crime in the first half ogf the 19th century. I find it fascinating that Sayers still seems to inspire such passion in her fans and detractors - she is, like Chandler I suppose, perceived as the one that elevated the genre but this presumes that it needed elevating! One can nitpick books to death and I;m not sure it's always fair - I remain of the opinion that Sayers, while a fine prose stylist, have faults hat are just too front and centre to be ignored. But this does not in any way explain why so many are quite so devoted, does it? But when it comes to GAUDY, in terms of her actual accomplishment as opposed to what she set out to do do, I would much rather read NINE TAILORS any day!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-79316141393079361072014-02-07T06:29:07.074-08:002014-02-07T06:29:07.074-08:00I think someone like Harriet Vane (i.e., Sayers) l...I think someone like Harriet Vane (i.e., Sayers) likely would be inclined to view academic life in a more idealized way, not living it first-hand. ;) On the other hand, a lot of women academics especially love the book, so maybe their experience with that life has been different from what mine was!<br /><br />It is funny that you mentioned Dead Water. I started that one last year and left it unfinished! The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-16505172956910908812014-02-07T06:08:36.793-08:002014-02-07T06:08:36.793-08:00I'm all for more blogs from GA crime fiction r...I'm all for more blogs from GA crime fiction readers especially, grimwig.<br /><br />I agree with you that around that time Hill achieved remarkable accomplishments in detective fiction. I need to blog about him sometime. Was going to do Dialogues, but Patrick Ohl beat me to it! May do that and Beulah sometime.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-58965959705995671372014-02-07T06:04:34.122-08:002014-02-07T06:04:34.122-08:00Queenie Leavis, who had a great deal of experience...Queenie Leavis, who had a great deal of experience with academic life, was a contemporary reader who thought GN greatly romanticized its setting. Of course Leavis passionately hated crime novels too (and the fact that anyone actually read them)!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-87998355821272831182014-02-07T06:01:38.615-08:002014-02-07T06:01:38.615-08:00Sergio, I haven't seen the series, and would l...Sergio, I haven't seen the series, and would like to, to see how it matches the book. Was the GA part just one episode I take it? Of course there is only so much one can do on a television episode, but I do think there was more this section of the book could have done. I have to confess I found the book section on the GA disappointing.<br /><br />I think Gaudy Night is one of those detective novels that often appeals to be people who don't like detective novels! On the other hand, I've talked to passionate Golden Age mystery fans who really like it. Both Chandler and Symons didn't think much of it as a novel, while John Strachey and Somerset Maugham lamented that Sayers had stopped writing clever detective stories to become a popular mainstream novelist.<br /><br />There actually is an interesting mystery in Gaudy Night, I think, and it complements the theme of the book, but it tends to be dwarfed by all the other material. It does seem to me more a mainstream novel with a mystery element.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-62417421619363651502014-02-07T05:45:15.082-08:002014-02-07T05:45:15.082-08:00One problem I have with Gaudy Night is I think the...One problem I have with Gaudy Night is I think the academic life is tremendously romanticized.<br /><br />On Marsh, at least we agree about Dead Water and Tied Up in Tinsel. I think how one views Lampreys often depends on whether one sees Marsh really criticizing the family or not.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-81148132473326555012014-02-07T03:46:29.571-08:002014-02-07T03:46:29.571-08:00Really enjhoying your look at this book - I record...Really enjhoying your look at this book - I recorded her TV series, which preceded the book I think, but haven't watched it yet. Sayers certainly is the one she venerates. Troubles is I understand completely why Symons so critiqued GAUDY NIGHT (I prefer the TV version frankly) and in a way one suspects that this is a novel admired by people who don't really buy in to GAD literature - I think that's why a lot of people like Chandler, because it can be claimed as serious literature. I love Chandler and I think it is great literature but I don't think this is in any way not synonymous with great detective stories and I suspect that Worsley doesn't see it that way ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-8994908696574453412014-02-07T01:35:29.710-08:002014-02-07T01:35:29.710-08:00What I take from Gaudy Night (I reread it recently...What I take from Gaudy Night (I reread it recently) is a yearning for an alternative lifestyle for women: the cosy, institutional world of the single-sex college. Sayers scrupulously points out its downside: that women may grow old there without growing up. But in a world where women had a stark choice between marriage and career, a secular nunnery appeals. (PS Surfeit of Lampreys is one of Marsh's worst! I class it with Dead Water and Tied Up in Tinsel.)Lucy R. Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632983296994349550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-137677673775151256.post-14226661372775709552014-02-06T18:02:25.823-08:002014-02-06T18:02:25.823-08:00Wow there are so many points to bring up here that...Wow there are so many points to bring up here that I may have to cast caution to the wind and create my own blog (i have no idea how this is done, or if i would just be boring)<br /><br />The stuff about gaudy night as literature (in worsleys view) rather than crime fiction reminded me, i'm currently reading on beulah height by reginald hill, one of the best crime novels i've ever read, and although i hate that concept 'the crime novel thats worthy of being a proper novel' it is stunningly brilliant. Two points- i would love you to do a life in crime piece on the author in question, and secondly, there was talk of hill leaving an unpublished ms behind- do you know if there is any talk on it being available?grimwighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06150168436753680867noreply@blogger.com